We Didn't Start the Flame War

I was really bored and ended up browsing through the youtube top-rated list. I haven't done this for quite some time. I was expecting to find funny cat videos, but instead I came across this lovely chap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyNQ1zc-q74

[apologies, FB users, if the HTML code below doesn't function - it should work on my blogspot]


It was possibly quite naive of me, but I was a bit shocked after watching that. Not so much because of what was said, but more because of the response he received. Overwhelming support. The comments section below was littered with users applauding him and (as I said earlier) it was one of the top rated videos of the month.

I don't normally comment on videos myself - mainly because I'm watching videos of funny cats, so there's very little for me to say other than, "Oh that cat did something in a way that was incredibly funny and yet simultaneously cute. This truly is a wonderful time to be alive."

However, religion is a subject I feel quite passionate about and I thought now was the time to get in on the action and see what people say. After having spent some time at the arsehole of the internet I was well aware of flame wars. I was not keen on getting involved in one, but it has been interesting discussing this topic with strangers.

I've posted the comments I've made for two different videos and then posted the replies. The discussion is still ongoing so I might update this post when I receive something new.

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What I know about Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyNQ1zc-q74

I: This is one of the top rated videos on youtube this month. Find the statement about needing a peaceful society a bit hypocritical considering how his video is quite openly Islamophobic.
His argument fails in the same place as many others. An inability to distinguish between politics, religion and culture. This kind of backlash does no-one any favours. It only alienates peaceful Muslims living happily in this society

Caracalla23: @I But does Islam distinguish between religion, culture and politics.

I: @Caracalla23 Well that's just falling into the same trap. Do you mean British/American Muslims, Middle-Eastern Muslims, Islamic scholars or political figures in Islamic countries?

The answers would be different for each group. Moreover it would be different for each individual. No religion is one entity.

Caracalla23: @I So theres absolutely no conformity amongst Muslims? Every Muslim is an Island entire of himself? But surely there must be a large number of core beliefs amongst the 100s millions of Sunnis. (and those beliefs from an outsiders perspective are becoming increasingly narrow and conservative) If theres not then why call it Islam? Then why call it a religion?

I: @Caracalla23 Tbh, I'm not sure I fully understand your argument. I wasn't saying that there are no similarities, I just think that it's not fair to group Muslims all together. Some Muslims do have very conservative views, others are more open and progressive. Attacking 'Islam' is far too unspecific and general.


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God Bless Atheism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4mWiqkGy-Y

I: I find this man a terrible representative for atheism. The arguments he makes are packed full of rhetoric and emotion, but little substance. Religions are not 'evil'. That concept is an incredible oversimplification and implies that every follower of that religion is also 'evil'.
Attacking people's beliefs will in no way align them to your cause. These videos consist of needless provocation. Bashing religion gets you nowhere....

InfidelArmee: @I,"Religions are not 'evil' ". True. Religions are a lot of Dumbshit. By Dumbshits. For Dumbshits. Islam is NOT a Religion. Islam is a Totalitarian, Supremacist Ideology. Islam is Nazism. IslamoNazism.

I: @InfidelArmee Wikipedia search: Godwin's Law

InfidelArmee: @I I did. Your Point, Nazi?

robertangel30: @I Bashing religion gets you everywhere. Religious minded adults are lost for the most part, they must have an intellectual epiphany. The young minds who are undecided or weak in their faith are the ones who will be positively influenced by Pat.

I believe there is a youtube video that says "the internet is the place religions come to die." Very True indeed.

I: @robertangel30 I don't think there is much positive influence here. I can't see how atheism is any better than religion if people still use the same strong-armed tactics to 'recruit' more to their cause.

The simple fact is that what he says is all lies and hyperbole. I can't see how any of this is different from preaching. It's just as one-sided and narrow-minded.

richybinns @I Recruit? I knew I didn't believe in fairies long before I knew the word "ATHEIST"

How can being told to think for yourself be considered strong-arm? being told to believe or die better describes that tactic.

I: @richybinns I was referring to the post before me by robertangel30: "young minds who are undecided or weak in their faith are the ones who will be positively influenced"
You're right. Strong-arm probably wasn't the best term, but he does use a lot of rhetoric and much of what he says is unfounded. There are huge leaps of judgement made in writing off everything religion does as 'evil', cleverly ignoring any good it might do. It's a polemic argument and not a particularly strong one.

eddietaylor: @I There is nothing narrow minded about atheism.
All atheists have had to examine all the evidence ( I use that term loosely) and think it through independantly, and despite everything that we are taught or told from being small children, have arrived at the conclusion that god is bollocks. That is very different from being told that everything you see was made by an invisible man, and soaking it up like a sponge without any resistance. Now that IS narrow minded.

I: @eddietaylor I think you've missed my point a little. I don't think that atheism is in any way narrow-minded, but atheists can be. Using the word 'evil' to describe millions of people is just illogical to me. Not all people believe the same things or act the same way, regardless of religious/spiritual belief.
I'm an atheist myself, but I do find it frustrating when other atheists display such intolerance for religion.

eddietaylor: @I Point taken, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
This intolerance from atheists is simply minute in comparison with the intolerance of muslims and christians TO atheists, and even that pales into insignificance when compared to their intolerance of each other. You and I are entitled to be frustrated, because reason is being clouded by ancient superstition. Also, freedom of speech creates animosity by default. People should come down from their own assholes and deal with that.

I: @eddietaylor Well you're probably right about that. I could see how blind faith leads to greater intolerance.
I suppose what I feel uncomfortable with is that Pat (man in video) had several videos that were in the top-rated this month. It's worrying to me that a viewpoint such as his is seen by many as a very good thing. It's also worrying that many religious people will see this and think this is what all atheist think, therefore increasing the intolerance of atheism you mentioned.

robertangel30: @I When you say that what Pat says "is all lies". You no longer have any any credibility. Please point out one factual lie.  And please remember that exageration is not a lie.

I: @robertangel30 Well yes you're entirely right. I was exaggerating myself there. He uses very heavy rhetoric to twist arguments in his favour and rarely makes adequate (and often crucial) distinctions. He uses many examples (such as the Pope protecting sex-offenders) to justify why ALL of religion is bad. Plenty of bad things have been done by religious people and plenty done by non-religious people. This is just an extreme generalisation. It's hard to listen to such an unbalanced viewpoint.

robertangel30: @I Very nice. Reasonalbe retort. We come from very different premises. Pat and I know the all religions are false. You believe in yours. Thus you can never understand his points. You have what I like to prefer as a mind bump. You can never and will never get past it. Our premises guide us.

I: @robertangel30 I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, but I'm also an atheist. I think that's why I find it so hard to hear. It might be quite arrogant but I think I get his point, but I don't like how extreme it is. I don't think atheism is the answer to the world's problems. I don't believe that religion is the cause for all these bad things and I don't think things would be all that different if religion just went away.

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Looking back this seems like a very accurate representation of the world of online discussion. There's some agreement, LOTS of disagreement and some blatant trolling too.